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Dark knight general discussion/suggestions

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#1 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 12:56 AM

I saw Spillion started this for crusaders and think it's a great idea! So lets share ideas and have some positive discussion! biggrin.png

 

I'll start out with a suggestion. I think would be cool to give dks; the +defense portion of seal: gaurdian angel that crusaders have. 

 

I don't think the dk version should save someone from death though. Instead have the seal(2250 defense i believe it is at 60) be tied to rampant anger. So if you activate rampant anger you lose the defensive buff until rampant anger ends, but if you don't activate it you maintain the defense bonus. 

 

I think this would be helpful and balanced because right now dks sorta fall somewhere wthin 3 general categories:

 

1. I literally ice strike/provoc and die

2. I sorta of do things, but i don't make a big impact

3. fear me, run, be afraid. 

 

By adding in this passive defense increase Dks leveling up would feel less squishy and less dependent on always landing their bloody harvest if they wanna stand any chance at not dying. 

It would also help new lvl 60 dks not feel like they're completely worthless, but would also not make a fully upgraded dk completely op because defense scaling starts falling off. All in all it would add in a nice buffer to the dk class, and i think overall improve their play without making them crazy overpowered. 


Edited by I'mKirito (Elgore), 26 April 2016 - 01:13 AM.

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#2 Reikkan (Elgore)

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 06:53 AM

Hi Kirito.

 

I used to play as DK before creating my Crus, so I think I could comment here too.

 

First of all, I think that the DK has a poor interation between his own skills. Example: If you use Rampant Anger, you can't use any fury-consuming skills (even his most powerful skill - Fury Rush) because its effect will end.

 

I would suggest a whole remake on the class because of it, but since they already made a remake on DK, i doubt it would happen, so let's add some points.

 

1 - Steel Spikes is an useless aura. You only use it if there is someone else using the Steel Defense aura on the party, and it doesn't make Steel Spikes any better. I would replace it with a Vampirism + Health Regeneration aura. It fits far better with the class and would make DKs interaction with high-carriers (hunters, snipers, assassins) really useful, instead of just using CCs and dealing damage. Plus, it would allow a lot of new builds, since every DK is bound to have at least half the blood tree since you can't stay alive without it.

 

2 - The DK version of the "Seal: Guardian Angel" is in the blood tree (Other World), but its cooldown is out of question. It could be "annoying" on Tank DKs, but remember that their heals are based on dealing damage and Tank DK is far lesser annoying than a Crusader. This cooldown should be lowered to 2 minutes to follow the Crusader's pattern.

 

3 - DK's energy consumption is even higher than Crusaders. I guess it should be a little lower since you don't have the same resources as Crus (Hammer, 2 energy-management talents, etc).

 

4 - Rampant Anger has the worst interaction I ever saw (Go rampant but don't use your skills since they cost fury). Since its a full-berserker thing, I would recommend that it should last a short amount of time (let's say, 3 or 4 seconds), but each time you do a sucessful hit on an enemy, it last +1 second, to a limit of 8~12 seconds (idk). Plus, instead of having the CC-immunity talent, it should be replaced with a DEF passive. Pretty cool, right? Give up 2k defense, go rampant, hit things. Classic berserker mode.

 

 

I think that's it for now. What do you think?


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If you need a support for tanking anything, you still aren't able to tank it. 


#3 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 07:04 AM

Hi Kirito.

 

I used to play as DK before creating my Crus, so I think I could comment here too.

 

First of all, I think that the DK has a poor interation between his own skills. Example: If you use Rampant Anger, you can't use any fury-consuming skills (even his most powerful skill - Fury Rush) because its effect will end.

 

I would suggest a whole remake on the class because of it, but since they already made a remake on DK, i doubt it would happen, so let's add some points.

 

1 - Steel Spikes is an useless aura. You only use it if there is someone else using the Steel Defense aura on the party, and it doesn't make Steel Spikes any better. I would replace it with a Vampirism + Health Regeneration aura. It fits far better with the class and would make DKs interaction with high-carriers (hunters, snipers, assassins) really useful, instead of just using CCs and dealing damage. Plus, it would allow a lot of new builds, since every DK is bound to have at least half the blood tree since you can't stay alive without it.

 

2 - The DK version of the "Seal: Guardian Angel" is in the blood tree (Other World), but its cooldown is out of question. It could be "annoying" on Tank DKs, but remember that their heals are based on dealing damage and Tank DK is far lesser annoying than a Crusader. This cooldown should be lowered to 2 minutes to follow the Crusader's pattern.

 

3 - DK's energy consumption is even higher than Crusaders. I guess it should be a little lower since you don't have the same resources as Crus (Hammer, 2 energy-management talents, etc).

 

4 - Rampant Anger has the worst interaction I ever saw (Go rampant but don't use your skills since they cost fury). Since its a full-berserker thing, I would recommend that it should last a short amount of time (let's say, 3 or 4 seconds), but each time you do a sucessful hit on an enemy, it last +1 second, to a limit of 8~12 seconds (idk). Plus, instead of having the CC-immunity talent, it should be replaced with a DEF passive. Pretty cool, right? Give up 2k defense, go rampant, hit things. Classic berserker mode.

 

 

I think that's it for now. What do you think?

great points man, in regards to point 2/4 you and i are basically saying the same thing haha. And with other world, it doesn't heal, has too high of a cooldown. I just think Dks need a way to get more passive defense, Crusaders get massive defensive buff increases passively, along with self heals that are guaranteed.Not all of this, but some of this defense should be sent over to dks, because it's sorta silly that a crusader can go full dmg and still have more defensive abilities than a full defensive dk, lol. Yugi is probably the best example of this currently. I do agree a full rework would be ideal. 



#4 Reikkan (Elgore)

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 07:54 AM

The problem of DK is not status-wise, but his poor interaction between his own skills and talents. Giving flat status will not bring balance, it will just "boost" a little on the gameplay.

 

Crusaders have massive defensive buff because they are meant to. If you want to compare Yugi to someone, do it with Andisu, because they have similar gearpower. And to be honest, Andisu is far more scary than Yugi.

 

Dark Knights could be "setup" for 2 things:

 

1 - Burst damage with Blackflame, Fire build and Fury Rush (That's pretty much Andisu's build, but he's not running Blackflame right now);

 

2 - Prolonged combat being a Bruiser.

 

Thing is, you can't be a decent Bruiser with the class that is meant to! DKs should get stronger if the battle goes on. Balancing DK to be a burst class (giving it more damage) will only make it a "Poor-version assassin", pretty much like the Thief is right now.

 

Devs should put DK into his right place, as a sustained damage bruiser who benefits from long fights. No burst like assassins, no defense like Crusader, yet, a balance between both, and i'm pretty sure that this would need a complete rework.


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If you need a support for tanking anything, you still aren't able to tank it. 


#5 Khyaran (Elgore)

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 08:30 AM

interesting points, i agree dark knights need alot of costs to gear to be viable (Oomph, Andisu, Barney, Flik) all have gear close to the most built out stats, and cause of this only they can get stuff done well

Dark knights may need a rework, but if i recall correctly they are currently making some crazy crowd control immunity chance on the russian pts, which could make all classes more viable

Answer no master, never the slave,

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#6 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:20 PM

interesting points, i agree dark knights need alot of costs to gear to be viable (Oomph, Andisu, Barney, Flik) all have gear close to the most built out stats, and cause of this only they can get stuff done well

Dark knights may need a rework, but if i recall correctly they are currently making some crazy crowd control immunity chance on the russian pts, which could make all classes more viable

immunity chance? What would that look like? do you have more details? This could mean good/bad for dks lol. 



#7 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:47 PM

The problem of DK is not status-wise, but his poor interaction between his own skills and talents. Giving flat status will not bring balance, it will just "boost" a little on the gameplay.

 

Crusaders have massive defensive buff because they are meant to. If you want to compare Yugi to someone, do it with Andisu, because they have similar gearpower. And to be honest, Andisu is far more scary than Yugi.

 

Dark Knights could be "setup" for 2 things:

 

1 - Burst damage with Blackflame, Fire build and Fury Rush (That's pretty much Andisu's build, but he's not running Blackflame right now);

 

2 - Prolonged combat being a Bruiser.

 

Thing is, you can't be a decent Bruiser with the class that is meant to! DKs should get stronger if the battle goes on. Balancing DK to be a burst class (giving it more damage) will only make it a "Poor-version assassin", pretty much like the Thief is right now.

 

Devs should put DK into his right place, as a sustained damage bruiser who benefits from long fights. No burst like assassins, no defense like Crusader, yet, a balance between both, and i'm pretty sure that this would need a complete rework.

I totally agree. I think they need a full rework also. I just try to make small suggestions in hopes that we'll get some tlc until a full rework is hopefully done.

 

I also agree with your view on this; They are designed to be the bruiser it just isn't done super well. I feel this is made most evident in our talent tree setup in which we're pretty much forced into what route we use our first 11 points, and with the remaining 7 there aren't any great options. We can go full into mastery, but then we have to go crit build, which isn't really viable on a melee front-line class unitl your gear starts to see really high improvements/seals. Or we go the fury rush route, but in turn trade off a bunch of our cc, and pretty much completely lose mounting potential.

 

Another big thing that needs to happen for dks that spill kinda pointed out, by referencing the big names; is that they need to feel like dks before all +9/+10 and orange/purple seals, but i think this only really gets fixed by a full re-work Reikkan. 



#8 Khyaran (Elgore)

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 05:06 PM

Go translate the russian patch notes


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#9 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 06:44 PM

Go translate the russian patch notes

will do, what section is it under?



#10 Reikkan (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 04:39 PM

Any news about russian patch notes here? I'm curious.


If you need a support for tanking anything, you still aren't able to tank it. 


#11 Khyaran (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 05:03 PM

The official patch is out now, you can find it in the updates section :)


Edited by Spillion (Elgore), 19 May 2016 - 05:03 PM.

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Answer no master, never the slave,

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#12 Reikkan (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 05:14 PM

Heh, saw it before you post, so that's what you said about control immunity.

 

Pretty cool for me. 


If you need a support for tanking anything, you still aren't able to tank it. 


#13 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 10:17 PM

Heh, saw it before you post, so that's what you said about control immunity.

 

Pretty cool for me. 

for you-_- haha. My one skill to lock someone down(ice strike) OH LOOK CC IMMUNITY! angry.png lol. 



#14 Reikkan (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 10:47 PM

for you-_- haha. My one skill to lock someone down(ice strike) OH LOOK CC IMMUNITY! angry.png lol. 

 

Use it as the first CC and you'll be fine. Chains is not considered a CC because it doesn't have a duration. Same as knockback from Shield Blow.

 

Your combo will still be the same and will have the same duration. Subsequent CCs will apply reducted duration.


If you need a support for tanking anything, you still aren't able to tank it. 


#15 I'mKirito (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 10:56 PM

Use it as the first CC and you'll be fine. Chains is not considered a CC because it doesn't have a duration. Same as knockback from Shield Blow.

 

Your combo will still be the same and will have the same duration. Subsequent CCs will apply reducted duration.

if the target hasn't been hit with cc yet, and if i can get my fury to stay up, which doens't work until i take damage in arena/siege.(another issue of the class. Yes Dks can build fury, but it you're not in combat it falls just as quickly. If we could build fury and it woudn't fall for 5 seconds, then yes, i would agree. 



#16 HotChocolate (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 10:57 PM

I miss the day when pull freeze squal combo was a hype.



#17 Reikkan (Elgore)

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Posted 19 May 2016 - 11:03 PM

if the target hasn't been hit with cc yet, and if i can get my fury to stay up, which doens't work until i take damage in arena/siege.(another issue of the class. Yes Dks can build fury, but it you're not in combat it falls just as quickly. If we could build fury and it woudn't fall for 5 seconds, then yes, i would agree. 

 

The whole thing here is that CCs are not meant to prevent people from moving, they are a tool to finish off an enemy.

 

Before this patch, the team with better CC-lockers usually won, because you couldn't do anything then you were dead.

 

Now, you will need to at least deal some damage and burn the enemy's resources before throwing a CC at him.

 

Tell your teammates to save CC for those who are low on resources, track up enemy's cooldowns and you'll be fine. It's difficult for those who are random queue'd but it was really easy for me when I used to play.

 

I used to play with a sniper friend and we only had 2 CCs to use, yet we always killed or foes.

 

Try new strategies instead saying the patch killed your class.


If you need a support for tanking anything, you still aren't able to tank it. 


#18 Xeffer (Elgore)

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Posted 20 May 2016 - 02:55 PM

 

Try new strategies instead saying the patch killed your class.

 

i already have one and DK will stay in TOP regarding PVP :3 if only i had a better gear then my new strategy will be 100% foolproof :3 


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