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Dexterity Useless?


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#1 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:14 PM

i'm so sorry but you wrote assasian instead of assassin. made me laugh.

 


I have been playing the Assassin class, and my thinking was an assassin should have high dexterity (which improves attack speed). However, the improvement in attack speed is so small that it does not come CLOSE to comparing to an improvement in strength.

 

DEXTERITY

+ .25% attack speed for each point

+ 2.5% attack speed for every 10 points.

 

STRENGTH

+ 2 Attack for every point

+ 15 Attack for every 10 points.

 

In practice, the improvement to strength is SO MUCH better than dexterity, why should any class ever put points into it?

 

I think if you want to make Dexterity useful, it should be one of the following.

 

As it stands now, it takes about +10% of attack speed to add 1/10 (one-tenth) attacks per second. Meanwhile, strength would give you so much more damage per hit that it becomes a clear winner.

 

What are the thoughts of the Royal Quest community?

 

P.S. - Let me add that I really like this game and it is very fun. This dexterity complaint I have is really the only complaint I have (ignoring the "amout of items I can carry" issue).

 

If an admin can tell me I am mathimatically incorrect (in terms of balance and DPS) please let me know. But as it stands now it seems strength adds much more DPS (and damage to your other skills) than dexterity, while dexterity does not add any other utility to offset this difference.

 

Thanks for a great game!



#2 SourDee (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 02:02 PM

i'm so sorry but you wrote assasian instead of assassin. made me laugh.

#3 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 02:09 PM

i'm so sorry but you wrote assasian instead of assassin. made me laugh.

Lol oops. Will change it.



#4 Razzista (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 02:12 PM

You're playing one of the only two classes that doesn't have a viable dexterity build, the other being dark knights. Also, what level are you? Dexterity is one of the strongest stats for both hunters and snipers. There are warlock and sorcerer builds that max dexterity as well. There's also a crusader AoE survivability build that maxes dexterity for grandcross spam. Thieves can make on-hit dexterity builds for high dps and grinding but it's terrible in PvP.

 

I agree at first glance dexterity looks awful but the buffs you're suggesting are ridiculously overpowered. If you think +1 dodge/+5 dodge per milestone is fair, you're either dreaming or don't realize the value of dodge. Also, if you think 1% attack speed/5% attack speed per milestone is fair, you need to check your math or actually bother to do some.

 

I honestly, to a small degree, agree that dexterity needs a buff, but not what you're suggesting. I would be happy to see it jump to 0.5% attack speed per point, 2.5% attack speed per milestone. Or even 0.33%/2.5%. If it were to add dodge, it would have to add it in values similar or possibly lower than the attack speed amount. ie. 0.2 dodge/2dodge.

 

-----------------

 

With the way dexterity currently is, hunters can get up to 4 attacks per second while beastly fury is up. The hunter's best talent hands down is Buzzing Arrows which has a 7% chance on attack to drop a bomb on the enemy dealing massive AoE damage. There is also several on-hit proc cards you can slot in your gloves for a similar effect. On top of those, there are seals you can get that have a small chance of applying bleeds, burns, and poisons that deal immense amounts of damage. Built properly hunters should always auto-attack and only ever use skills as utility to keep the enemy away.

 

Snipers are capable of similar builds to the hunter. The sniper's strongest build as far as sustained damage goes is an on-hit air damage proc build. Snipers aren't capable of the amount of attacks per second as hunters are but they also have Sniper Shot, originally a 2.5 second cast, that deals upwards of 20,000 damage (tooltip), non-crit, that can be brought down to 1.5 seconds pretty easily with how dex currently is. This ability needs to be interrupted in PvP, or it typically results in someone's death. They lose a lot of accuracy (Sniper's strength/attack) and/or crit chance by doing so, but it's very viable. If dex was too much stronger than it is now (ie. your 1%/5% suggestion), Sniper's could get 250% attack speed before any gear, seals, or cards, resulting in a Sniper Shot cast time under 1 second. Good luck interrupting/surviving that.

 

Sorcerers and Warlocks both have cast time abilities and dexterity builds are viable on them similarly to how they're viable to the Sniper class with Sniper Shot. Their abilities will be a little weaker but cast much faster. This is especially true for the abilities Chaos Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and the ability that looks like Arcane Blast that I can't currently think of the name of. There's a mage talent that makes spamming the same ability over and over again stronger each time. Dex builds with this talent can be broken, in end game gear.

 

In general, dexterity is not very strong for the other four classes, but Crusaders and Thieves can still make builds around dexterity. It can even be useful to DKs and Assassins in small amounts for ability weaving and energy conservation.

 

-----------------

 

Coming back to an original question/concern; what level are you? Strength is not as strong as you probably think it is late game.

 

Simple math example:

 

At level 10, your weapon may have something like 20 attack. 1 point of strength increases that by 2 attack. That's a 10% attack increase (2/20 = 0.1*100 = 10%).

At level 60, your +10 weapon may have something more like 800 attack. 1 point of strength still only increases that by 2 attack. That's a 0.25% attack increase

(2/800 = 0.0025*100 = 0.25%).

 

Currently, as a Sniper, I will likely be stopping my accuracy whenever I hit about 1,000 attack. The rest of my points will be split across dexterity, stamina, and luck. Probably 1:1:1, but I'll have to toy with it a little more.

 

---------------

 

In conclusion, it's unfortunate dexterity isn't very strong for your class, even though it's still arguably viable late game, but buffing it, especially by the numbers you're suggesting, would be ridiculously overpowered for every other class. I do agree, again, a very small dexterity buff may be in order though.

 

 

 

~ Razzista, level 57 Sniper, math major dropout, been writing MMO guides and inventing builds and strats since I was a wee lad.


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#5 SourDee (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 02:19 PM

i was thinking attack speed scales better later game kinda like crit.

#6 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 02:58 PM

You're playing one of the only two classes that doesn't have a viable dexterity build, the other being dark knights. Also, what level are you? Dexterity is one of the strongest stats for both hunters and snipers. There are warlock and sorcerer builds that max dexterity as well. There's also a crusader AoE survivability build that maxes dexterity for grandcross spam. Thieves can make on-hit dexterity builds for high dps and grinding but it's terrible in PvP.

 

I agree at first glance dexterity looks awful but the buffs you're suggesting are ridiculously overpowered. If you think +1 dodge/+5 dodge per milestone is fair, you're either dreaming or don't realize the value of dodge. Also, if you think 1% attack speed/5% attack speed per milestone is fair, you need to check your math or actually bother to do some.

 

I honestly, to a small degree, agree that dexterity needs a buff, but not what you're suggesting. I would be happy to see it jump to 0.5% attack speed per point, 2.5% attack speed per milestone. Or even 0.33%/2.5%. If it were to add dodge, it would have to add it in values similar or possibly lower than the attack speed amount. ie. 0.2 dodge/2dodge.

 

-----------------

 

With the way dexterity currently is, hunters can get up to 4 attacks per second while beastly fury is up. The hunter's best talent hands down is Buzzing Arrows which has a 7% chance on attack to drop a bomb on the enemy dealing massive AoE damage. There is also several on-hit proc cards you can slot in your gloves for a similar effect. On top of those, there are seals you can get that have a small chance of applying bleeds, burns, and poisons that deal immense amounts of damage. Built properly hunters should always auto-attack and only ever use skills as utility to keep the enemy away.

 

Snipers are capable of similar builds to the hunter. The sniper's strongest build as far as sustained damage goes is an on-hit air damage proc build. Snipers aren't capable of the amount of attacks per second as hunters are but they also have Sniper Shot, originally a 2.5 second cast, that deals upwards of 20,000 damage (tooltip), non-crit, that can be brought down to 1.5 seconds pretty easily with how dex currently is. This ability needs to be interrupted in PvP, or it typically results in someone's death. They lose a lot of accuracy (Sniper's strength/attack) and/or crit chance by doing so, but it's very viable. If dex was too much stronger than it is now (ie. your 1%/5% suggestion), Sniper's could get 250% attack speed before any gear, seals, or cards, resulting in a Sniper Shot cast time under 1 second. Good luck interrupting/surviving that.

 

Sorcerers and Warlocks both have cast time abilities and dexterity builds are viable on them similarly to how they're viable to the Sniper class with Sniper Shot. Their abilities will be a little weaker but cast much faster. This is especially true for the abilities Chaos Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and the ability that looks like Arcane Blast that I can't currently think of the name of. There's a mage talent that makes spamming the same ability over and over again stronger each time. Dex builds with this talent can be broken, in end game gear.

 

In general, dexterity is not very strong for the other four classes, but Crusaders and Thieves can still make builds around dexterity. It can even be useful to DKs and Assassins in small amounts for ability weaving and energy conservation.

 

-----------------

 

Coming back to an original question/concern; what level are you? Strength is not as strong as you probably think it is late game.

 

Simple math example:

 

At level 10, your weapon may have something like 20 attack. 1 point of strength increases that by 2 attack. That's a 10% attack increase (2/20 = 0.1*100 = 10%).

At level 60, your +10 weapon may have something more like 800 attack. 1 point of strength still only increases that by 2 attack. That's a 0.25% attack increase

(2/800 = 0.0025*100 = 0.25%).

 

Currently, as a Sniper, I will likely be stopping my accuracy whenever I hit about 1,000 attack. The rest of my points will be split across dexterity, stamina, and luck. Probably 1:1:1, but I'll have to toy with it a little more.

 

---------------

 

In conclusion, it's unfortunate dexterity isn't very strong for your class, even though it's still arguably viable late game, but buffing it, especially by the numbers you're suggesting, would be ridiculously overpowered for every other class. I do agree, again, a very small dexterity buff may be in order though.

 

 

 

~ Razzista, level 57 Sniper, math major dropout, been writing MMO guides and inventing builds and strats since I was a wee lad.

Yea I did admit that my "suggestions" were probably overpowered. They were more of just examples.
I like your suggested numerical improvements (+.5%). I shouldnt have gotten too specific with numbers.

 

I did not realize that my dexterity issues had anything to do with my class. I am level 26 and I have 82 dexterity and I do not feel I see much of an attack speed difference (in practice). I have a strong feeling that if I had 82 strength instead, I would be killing enemies MUCH quicker. 82 strength would give me (2*82) + (8*15) = +284 attack, which I believe also boosts the attack damage of my skills.

 

I suppose late game advantages make sense. Being level 26, it's a little frustrating not seeing 82 dexterity have as much of an impact as I would like.

 

Thanks for your input, all your points made sense and were very detailed. I still wish dexterity was at least a LITTLE more impactful for me (i.e. your +.5 per dexterity point suggestion).

 

P.S. - I removed my specific numerical suggestions from the original post since they were a bit ridiculous.



#7 Razzista (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:11 PM

It's only so bad because:

 

1) Even if you had 100 attacks per second, if they're only hitting for 10 damage, that's still only 1,000 dps.

2) You have a spammable ability and other abilities with short cool downs. You're the only class (less thief) with a spammable non-cast ability.

3) At your level you need more damage, for the % increases I listed above.

 

You should buy a restat, if/when you can afford it. They're purchasable for either 99 reales or ~500k gold, relatively cheap, even though that seems like a lot at your level.

 

For now your stat spread should likely be 3:1 per level (Str:Stam), once you begin to feel too squishy, start doing 2:2 (Str:Stam), and once you're around 600 attack or more, start going into luck.

 

 

 

At max level with a good weapon your base stats should look something like:

 

100 luck, always.

The other 136 points can be split amongst the other two stats, either 100 stam/36 str, or 100 str/36 stam, or some sort of balance of the two you are comfortable with.

Dex is viable but not recommended for most assassin builds.


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#8 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:15 PM

It's only so bad because:

 

1) Even if you had 100 attacks per second, if they're only hitting for 10 damage, that's still only 1,000 dps.

2) You have a spammable ability and other abilities with short cool downs. You're the only class (less thief) with a spammable non-cast ability.

3) At your level you need more damage, for the % increases I listed above.

 

You should buy a restat, if/when you can afford it. They're purchasable for either 99 reales or ~500k gold, relatively cheap, even though that seems like a lot at your level.

 

For now your stat spread should likely be 3:1 per level (Str:Stam), once you begin to feel too squishy, start doing 2:2 (Str:Stam), and once you're around 600 attack or more, start going into luck.

 

 

 

At max level with a good weapon your base stats should look something like:

 

100 luck, always.

The other 136 points can be split amongst the other two stats, either 100 stam/36 str, or 100 str/36 stam, or some sort of balance of the two you are comfortable with.

Dex is viable but not recommended for most assassin builds.

Thanks for the advice. I think that wil be the best thing for me to do.

 

Of course, when I installed the game and picked rogue, I didn't know any of this, so I thought it would be fun to have a high attack speed. I didn't realize it would make my character a lot worse than had I gone a different direction with the stats.

 

I guess I will just do missions and farm until I have enough for a stat reset item (whatever it is).



#9 Gurtheg (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 04:04 PM

 

 

Sorcerers and Warlocks both have cast time abilities and dexterity builds are viable on them similarly to how they're viable to the Sniper class with Sniper Shot. Their abilities will be a little weaker but cast much faster. This is especially true for the abilities Chaos Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and the ability that looks like Arcane Blast that I can't currently think of the name of. There's a mage talent that makes spamming the same ability over and over again stronger each time. Dex builds with this talent can be broken, in end game gear.

 

 

---------------

 

In conclusion, it's unfortunate dexterity isn't very strong for your class, even though it's still arguably viable late game, but buffing it, especially by the numbers you're suggesting, would be ridiculously overpowered for every other class. I do agree, again, a very small dexterity buff may be in order though.

 

 

 

~ Razzista, level 57 Sniper, math major dropout, been writing MMO guides and inventing builds and strats since I was a wee lad.

M8... If I were to spend lets say 70 points into dex, that would make my 2 second cast be a 1.6~ cast. DEX is shit even for casters, unless I were to make a fully supportive warlock to hex and eat buffs or a warlock with shit HP that would be insta gibbed by everyone



#10 Razzista (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 05:14 PM

Actually since it's easier for warlocks to get higher amounts of attack.. A 1.6 second cast down from 2 second cast means you can get 25% more casts in (ie. 10 casts in 16 seconds up from 8 casts in 16 seconds). Versus those 70 points in intelligence. Sheele, my level 58 warlock friend, has around 1350 attack. Those 70 points in intelligence would give 245 attack. So it's essentially, at his attack, between a ~19% damage increase or 25% more casts. Again, both viable, and if we're talking PvP, one will be more bursty, and the other more pressure/sustained. Technically, on a single target boss fight, you would (again, with end game gear stats) get more damage out of the dexterity.

 

The primary reason most builds don't recommend dexterity for mage classes is because it only applies to skills with cast times, and their auto-attacks (lol). I never said mages should stack dexterity. That doesn't mean viable dex-based builds don't exist, which is all I was getting at. Don't be ignorant. :/


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#11 Gurtheg (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:39 PM

Actually since it's easier for warlocks to get higher amounts of attack.. A 1.6 second cast down from 2 second cast means you can get 25% more casts in (ie. 10 casts in 16 seconds up from 8 casts in 16 seconds). Versus those 70 points in intelligence. Sheele, my level 58 warlock friend, has around 1350 attack. Those 70 points in intelligence would give 245 attack. So it's essentially, at his attack, between a ~19% damage increase or 25% more casts. Again, both viable, and if we're talking PvP, one will be more bursty, and the other more pressure/sustained. Technically, on a single target boss fight, you would (again, with end game gear stats) get more damage out of the dexterity.

 

The primary reason most builds don't recommend dexterity for mage classes is because it only applies to skills with cast times, and their auto-attacks (lol). I never said mages should stack dexterity. That doesn't mean viable dex-based builds don't exist, which is all I was getting at. Don't be ignorant. :/

I'm talking pvp wise and I'm not being ignorant, there are only two or three with 2s cast and the reduction on their cast time is too shitty to be worth the points or be called viable. I'm going to stack a lot of dex myself but it doesnt make it less shit we can never get the cast time low enough to compare with the amount of crit, damage and health. For exemple, an assassin can greatly benefit from those three attributes while if I go for a crit build I would have to pretty much discard all my spells with a cast time if I dont want to be interrupted and or watch my targets just walk away while I cast and if I go for a dex build I lose alot of damage potential and they still take so long it's silly. IMO it should be buffed slightly. 25%  cast reduction for a hundred points doesnt compare with 45% crit, or with all the health and mana you get or even the attack.

Also the math you did is silly, you dont actually cast 25% more unless you cast 10 or more spells which never really happen in most fights (it's 20% btw) You get to cast one or two spells tops, and with that low of a reduction you still you cast only one or two IF you get to cast at all



#12 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:56 PM

I'm talking pvp wise and I'm not being ignorant, there are only two or three with 2s cast and the reduction on their cast time is too shitty to be worth the points or be called viable. I'm going to stack a lot of dex myself but it doesnt make it less shit we can never get the cast time low enough to compare with the amount of crit, damage and health. For exemple, an assassin can greatly benefit from those three attributes while if I go for a crit build I would have to pretty much discard all my spells with a cast time if I dont want to be interrupted and or watch my targets just walk away while I cast and if I go for a dex build I lose alot of damage potential and they still take so long it's silly. IMO it should be buffed slightly. 25%  cast reduction for a hundred points doesnt compare with 45% crit, or with all the health and mana you get or even the attack.

Also the math you just did is silly, you dont actually cast 25% more unless you cast 10 or more spells which never really happen in most fights

So in practice, you believe your warlocks does not benifit from dexterity enough to justify taking points away from strength/stamina.

 

I believe the same is true with my assasian.

 

Anyone else play a different class and have experience with dexterity benifiting over any of the other three attributes? So far it still seems that dexterity is not worth improving.



#13 Kuiba (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:55 PM

Razz stop telling him how to play assassin -.- strength on the assassin effects their heal skill. the more strength you have the more you heal the more stam makes no difference. on an assassin Str>stam STR better be maxed regardless, idc what you do with luck and stam after that but if str is not maxxed you lose out on burst damage and survivability. 


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#14 Kuiba (Elgore)

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:55 PM

Thanks for the advice. I think that wil be the best thing for me to do.

 

Of course, when I installed the game and picked rogue, I didn't know any of this, so I thought it would be fun to have a high attack speed. I didn't realize it would make my character a lot worse than had I gone a different direction with the stats.

 

I guess I will just do missions and farm until I have enough for a stat reset item (whatever it is).

Don't listen to him..... he's so clueless on how assassins work....


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#15 Razzista (Elgore)

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 01:28 AM

Says garbo Kuiba, can't kill nothin' :P


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#16 DasWood (Elgore)

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 07:04 AM

I'm not sure about assassins but I know for crusaders you want atk. All your skills are based on atk and all your skills have non trivial CD's except holy touch. 



#17 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 12:38 PM

Don't listen to him..... he's so clueless on how assassins work....

What do you suggest?

 

His suggestion seemed reasonable and he gave detailed explanations.

 

Do you believe I should put everything I have into strength/stamina and not put anything into luck? Or any another build? I'd like to hear multiple opinions on an Assasin build.



#18 Droog (Elgore)

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 09:58 AM

Str = atk/skill dmg
Dex = atk spd
Sta = hp/eng
Luck = crit chance

From what I see for the basics. I like assassins, so versatile and seem to be well thought out, well put together class - mage + sin = total devastation. dex can actually be a viable class build - but if low str and luck, a weak hitting one. Battle mantis card would be a good card to have, with str, atk, and atk spd gear. One thing I hate and keep bumping into is running low on energy and those times wouldn't mind being dex hvy. Being sta hvy doesn't help because who really wants to stop and reload? With locked up stat points that means being a punching bag. Dex sin might have adv over dex thief w skills but then there's the tradeoff with thief and wpns and stuns - the way I see - you can't knock it till you try it, so would be interesting to see.

#19 NightStalker (Elgore)

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 01:54 PM

Str = atk/skill dmg
Dex = atk spd
Sta = hp/eng
Luck = crit chance

From what I see for the basics. I like assassins, so versatile and seem to be well thought out, well put together class - mage + sin = total devastation. dex can actually be a viable class build - but if low str and luck, a weak hitting one. Battle mantis card would be a good card to have, with str, atk, and atk spd gear. One thing I hate and keep bumping into is running low on energy and those times wouldn't mind being dex hvy. Being sta hvy doesn't help because who really wants to stop and reload? With locked up stat points that means being a punching bag. Dex sin might have adv over dex thief w skills but then there's the tradeoff with thief and wpns and stuns - the way I see - you can't knock it till you try it, so would be interesting to see.

Yea I have to stick with my high Dex for now.

 

The attack speed is interesting because having 142% attack speek with katars is pretty cool (lots of heavy hitting attacks). However, sometimes I get a mission that involves me getting to an area where enemies are maybe 3 or 4 levels higher than mine. I end up standing there for like 15 second trying to kill something (if I decide not to use sabatoge or some other high damage skill to speed things up). When I have to kill 100 "things" to collect some items, I dont want to combo-chain a bunch of skills every time I want to kill a "normal" enemy.

 

Thank god for dodge. Combining ghost form with snake dexterity gives me something around 110 dodge (at level 28) and I can really stand there and avoid attacks.



#20 Droog (Elgore)

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 07:28 PM

Yeah that's the problem I'm seeing with dex build right now - not being able to hit. I don't have, but guildie does on thief - he can chop things down real fast but high level mobs he has a high miss rate. Dex should increase your to hit, you would think (needs to be changed)




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